North Korean defector and George W. Bush Institute program manager Joseph Kim joins the podcast to discuss his recent NK News opinion column arguing that analysts and policymakers focus too heavily on Kim Jong Un while overlooking the role ordinary North Koreans could play in shaping the country’s future. 

He explains why he believes North Korea should be understood as a country experiencing profound social change rather than simply a nuclear-armed state controlled from the top.

The conversation also explores how the growth of informal markets has changed both the economic lives and thinking of North Koreans, creating spaces to