When experts discuss a North Korean collapse scenario, the movement of people is not always considered.

However, Roberta Cohen, co-chair for the Committee on Human Rights in North Korea and a non-resident senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, outlines the ways in which UN agencies and offices such as the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) and UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) can help manage refugee and displacement issues.

She also said the Seoul UN office can play a significant role in the aftermath of a collapse, particularly in providing evidence for trials.

“This office has the documentation and the evidence for trials,” she said. “Trials should be held. It’s very important that they be held because people don’t forget.”

The Seoul office can provide information about individuals responsible for crimes against humanity and also locations of camps needed for possible military action to help prevent massacres from taking place.

“…The COI report has information from former prison guards that there is a plan to kill all the prisoners in the prison camps if there is a revolution or collapse of some kind. This is something that has to be prevented,” she said. “Some of the former guards put that testimony right into the COI report, and even said they had drills on how to kill people quickly.”

Though many believe that a collapse will trigger a mass flow of people across the Chinese border, Cohen points out that there is evidence the Chinese may plan on closing the border. Cohen believes that the issue can be effectively managed, though, if the whole UN system is involved and there is cooperation from regional governments.

Along with international institutions and regional governments, Cohen states that North Korean defectors can and should be equipped to develop their country by being given assistance to receive good education and training, should they wish it.

“There is a rehabilitation process (needed by those inside), so I think defectors could fill an important role by being a vehicle to what’s going on outside of the country,” she said.

Though the North Korean refugee issue has been largely unnoticed by the international refugee system, Cohen believes the COI report has made “this front-and-center.”

“The UNHCR spokesperson in Seoul made a strong announcement about how they will play a role in making sure that those who want to come to South Korea can get here,” said Cohen. “This was unusual for the agency to get up and say this. I thought it must have had a direct line to the COI report.”

‘Trials should be held. It’s very important that they be held because people don’t forget’

NK News: One major issue that the international community is concerned about in case North Korea collapses and there is Korean unification is resolving human rights issues and internal displacement.  What are the ways that this UN office in Seoul can contribute in resolving these potential issues?

Cohen: It wouldn’t be the purpose of this particular UN office to deal with refugees or internally displaced persons (IDPs) – that would be the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. To focus on the UN office in Seoul and what it could do, this office has the documentation and the evidence for trials. Trials should be held. It’s very important that they be held because people don’t forget. The Seoul office would contribute to deciding, who would (go to trial). The COI report already listed the names of the institutions in North Korea that are responsible in their opinion (for crimes against humanity), and they put away, privately, names of people, of individuals, in a security archive.

Which kinds of people should be tried? You can’t try enormous numbers. It’ll be unrealistic, but this would involve putting on trial principal people and those like prison guards directly involved in issuing orders for and carrying out crimes against humanity. The UN office in Seoul could help establish who should be tried and help Korea move on. It’s not just about sentencing someone but to have the history out in the public. What happened? What is wrong? What was a criminal offense that requires a trial?

The other way the office could be helpful is in working out how to prevent prisoners from being killed because the COI report has information from former prison guards that there is a plan to kill all of them if there is a revolution or collapse of some kind. This is something that has to be prevented. Some of the former guards put that testimony right into the COI report, and they even said they had drills on how to kill people quickly.

This would have to be in part military action, but this is something that the UN office in Seoul could begin to look into because one has to know about these camps. How many people are there? How many guards are there? How many administrative people are in the camps? How can one get across that this is a priority? In a situation like this (that is, collapse), the main priorities would be nuclear weapons and also protecting the civilian population, but rescuing prisoners must be prioritized as well. The UN office in Seoul would be very useful in providing accountability, protecting prisoners and getting information to the military (about the camps).

A lot of these camps are near the Chinese border, so that’s problematic as well. Having China cooperate in saving the prisoners will be a challenge as well. There will be the issue of whether China is going to help rescue the high command in North Korea. Where are they going to go? Elites such as Kim Jong Un’s relatives and others involved in the regime and their families, which can be tens of thousands of people, may try and escape to China. I’m not sure about the validity of this, but there was a newspaper story about how the Chinese leaked a document of what they would do in a collapse scenario. It said that the PLA would set up camps to keep these North Korean (elites) from coming to China, but that they would be guarded, so that these people would not be attacked. This is fine, but they should be given to trial if there are trials.

‘…the problem with humanitarian agencies is that they don’t like planning for collapses that are political’

Now, I come back to the point I was making at the beginning. When there is talk about how there are going to be huge refugee flows (in a collapse scenario), you have to realize that China can close its border. You also have to realize that there are a lot of mines along the South Korean/North Korean border. You don’t just walk over easily. It’s not as if these kind of huge refugee flows can just take place automatically. There will certainly be refugee flows, but no one knows what kind of scenario will occur.

You must also consider UN and military involvement. A special UN force is not needed because South Korean troops, U.S. troops and Chinese troops are there, but whether they will work together is a big question. If the military is there, humanitarian agencies need to be there. There are some in North Korea already – UNICEF, UNDP, WFP and there are other small programs. UNHCR, though, is not in North Korea and not on the border. So, it needs to be enlisted.

Now, the problem with humanitarian agencies is that they don’t like planning for collapses that are political. They would be afraid to be associated with anything like that. However, one way to discreetly involve them in disaster prevention planning is by treating this as a potential natural disaster scenario.

UN agencies, after all, would have to be brought in to work out plans for how to deal with (the humanitarian needs of) all these people and the South Korean government will want to have a strong role in making people feel they have a future at home in the North. Most people don’t like to move, so, if they can be assured that there is a future staying where they are, then you might not have huge flows of people.

If there is some kind of civil war, fighting or famine, though, then people will begin to run and move. It’s going to depend on what kind of scenario it is, but you will need the whole UN system involved and, also, the development people for the thereafter because the burden (of reconstruction) shouldn’t only be on South Korea. Aid has to be gotten from other countries and from the UN as well.

NK News: So, it is a huge regional issue, an international issue.

Cohen: It is an international issue because of the history of the Korean War. It comes right out of UN Security Council resolutions and General Assembly resolutions and Uniting for Peace (a resolution made during the Korean War to bypass Soviet vetoes), so there is a direct line (to the UN) of what happened historically in Korea.

NK News: One aspect of North Korean refugee and humanitarian issues that has not been brought to great attention is the status of North Korean refugees in Southeast Asian detention centers and Chinese and DPRK repatriations of refugees from countries in this region. Did the COI report address this issue in any way? If not, what attention could be brought to that?

Cohen: The country that has been primarily involved in (refoulement) is China. It’s the one that’s forcing back (most North Korean refugees). The Laotian case is mentioned in the COI report because there was forcible repatriation (assisted by the Chinese), but the COI report is investigating crimes against humanity and whether these systematic violations are producing that.

The focus on China and their role in forced repatriations, though, signals to all these countries that this (practice) is aiding and abetting crimes (against humanity) in North Korea. The message is definitely there. The UN resolutions on this report will not speak of China directly. The resolutions never do. They will call on all states to not return North Koreans. The non-refoulement provision is the main issue they are focusing on. As for the other questions, North Koreans’ being detained in (another third) country or how it works, the COI report doesn’t really investigate that. The COI report looks at when violations are widespread and systematic enough to become crimes against humanity.

NK News: How can “vulnerable groups” such as defectors, women, children and others be agents for larger political and cultural reform?

Cohen: Some (defectors) are very active in these (North Korean human rights) organizations, and they can be a bridge to unification. They should be trained in whatever professional activities they would like to be in or can be encouraged to take. (Defectors) are a very important group of people since they (have a role to play) when there’s a collapse. They don’t have to go back (after a collapse). No one should force them back, but some of them say they want to go back. They need skills, though. Those who were in prison camps didn’t have education and, so, a lot of attention should be paid to giving them scholarships, education and training, so that they can make a real contribution when they return. They have a hard time in South Korea finding employment and a place for themselves and education is a big part of that.

When you think of opening camps (in a collapse scenario), North Koreans (coming out) will want to see other North Koreans, maybe defectors in the South, rather than suddenly seeing South Koreans. A lot of these defectors who’ve been in some of these camps should be on the front lines of working with the people (currently in camps). People don’t just come out of these camps and walk away. There is a rehabilitation process, so I think defectors could fill an important role by being a vehicle to what’s going on outside of the country. Defectors will speak their dialects – their kind of Korean, and they will know North Korea.

‘The numbers of North Korean refugees are not large because it’s hard to (leave the country)’

North Korean women are quite remarkable. Most of those leaving the North are women, and, certainly, over 70 percent of those leaving China for South Korea are women. They have, through (participating in) markets, developed skills in trading and in helping their families to survive in the absence of the public distribution system, which has failed. Markets are not only places to trade and buy goods, but (places of) information and there is this whole sense of solidarity among people (engaged) here that (North Koreans) don’t otherwise have. So, women really have become agents for change. The women were the ones that yelled very loud when there was currency reform and suddenly everybody lost a lot of money. That’s something to very carefully watch because they are certainly in a very secondary position in their society.

NK News: Do you believe that the UN COI report will affect how refugees are treated?

Cohen: The numbers of North Korean refugees are not large because it’s hard to (leave the country). Since the Korean War, maybe 50,000 left. Over the last 10-15 years, 26,000-27,000 (North Korean defectors made their way to) South Korea. So, these are not big numbers as refugee populations go. There are tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of refugees (in different countries). So, (North Korean defectors) often get overlooked. Another reason why they are overlooked is because the problem has to do with China and North Korea, where there is no access. So, this is one of those refugee problems that is rather hidden. This does not reflect well on the international refugee system (since it does not prioritize the North Korean refugee issue).

UNHCR will argue that getting involved with North Korean refugees will undermine what it is doing for other refugee populations in China. (They say) the Chinese will expel it or will not cooperate ON other groups. But it is not UNHCR’s responsibility alone. There hasn’t been great support internationally from governments for UNHCR to raise its profile on this issue. So, the COI report is (significant since it shows that repatriating North Korean refugees who are then subject to punishment are crimes against humanity). Moreover, the report shows that these are problems for which officials can be brought to trial and that the North Korean refugee issue really should be given more attention.

The international refugee system has been quite delinquent in my opinion. There hasn’t been much effort in strengthening protection (for North Koreans). The small numbers, the inaccessibility, and that it’s North Korea and that it’s big China have really kept (the issue) to the side. The COI report, though, has made it front-and-center as a real terrible problem, and, has brought it to greater attention. The UNHCR spokesperson in Seoul made a strong announcement about how they will play a role in making sure that those who want to come to South Korea can get here. This was unusual for the agency to get up and say this. I thought it must have had a direct line to the COI report.

Pictures: Eric Lafforgue